February 17, 2021
(updated February 21, 2021)
Published by Dennis Velco
Understanding gender identity and expression to support education in LGBTQ corporate equality for a welcoming workplace. In Feb 2021 we updated our model to include scales for “other” in our own continued learning evolution and striving to provide content and resources that are reflective of you and all your beautiful complexities. We hope this now is fully inclusive and we remain open to constructive feedback.
Most people when they hear – LGBTQ – they think of it is a group of individuals who are attracted to members of the same sex to some degree. Interestingly, most don’t realize that the “T” does not directly relate to a person’s sexual attraction at all. It is separate and refers to a person’s sense of gender. Inside, do they feel like a male or female or even somewhere in between the two. This is referred to as gender identity.
Before the 19th century, the terms gender and sex were interchangeable. It was believed was what you physically appeared as at birth was cut and dry. Binary. Female or male from birth in body, mind, and soul.
Around 1925, a sexologist named Magnus Hirschfeld from Germany published an article. In it, he described for the first time the difference between the sexual desire for persons of the same gender compared to a deep desire to live and/or dress as the opposite gender because it matches how you feel and view yourself.
In the 1950s the concepts and theories about gender, gender roles, and gender identity were introduced and defined in the psychological literature. Psychologists, such as Jerome Kagan and John Money, initially believed that gender identity was simply a degree a person felt feminine or masculine coupled with the ability to live openly and freely as who they are supporting a secure sense of self.
From around 1965 through 1985 researchers such as Sandra Bem, Richard Green, Harry Benjamin, and, Robert Stoller furthered the understanding of gender and gender identity. Green, Benjamin, and Stoller pioneered gender identity clinics, as well as gender-related medical and surgical treatments.
The ongoing work of these and other pioneer researchers in the field of gender identity development raised awareness that gender is not exclusively determined by assigned sex at birth but determined by a person’s sense, belief, and the ultimate expression of self.
A bit more to understand
The term transgender is an overall term for people whose gender identity, expression and/or behavior is different from those typically associated with their assigned sex at birth. Since the 1990s, transgender has also been used to describe:
gender non-conforming people
Transgender men had or have female body parts; however, they may identify and/or express themselves as male. Female to male or F2M.
Transgender women had or have male body parts; however, they may identify and/or express themselves as female. Male to female or M2F.
Research shows that gender identity, in many cases, is independent of sexual orientation.
Androphilic are people that were born with a male body, have a female gender identity, and are attracted to men. My understanding is like this:
Gynephilia is people that were born with a male body, have a female gender and are attracted to women. My understanding is like this:
Cis-Gender, is a person who feels that how they mentally identify matches their physical body.
Marketors, employers, prevention specialists, and healthcare providers should be aware that beliefs impact almost all areas of a person’s life, their feeling of accepted and being welcomed.
Think about not only your own beliefs and attitudes but how can you impact your place of business, your working environment, policies, benefits. How can you make your company, business, institution more accessible and in some cases safe?
If in my attempts to simplify for the sake of understanding a very complex field I’m happy to be constructively corrected and happy to edit the content if necessary. Please add your comments below.
I’ve already written about the Surrey University study demonstrating a clear bias against persons who are perceived as LGBT in the hiring process, promotions, and salary. Added to the stress of work anyone faces, adds being verbally harassed or worse not just at work but everywhere.
At this point, it’s – Duh!. In order to understand you have to get to know.
If you work for a company if not already happening, suggest or start social gatherings to get to know others out of the work environment. Maybe host a company talent show or other activities that foster interaction embracing the differences. The biggest is connect with others and be open and willing to give everyone an opportunity to shine. Listen carefully. Do you have interests in common? Do you hear an opportunity to partner on a project to help each other and maybe others in the company or community?
OutBüro’s Gender Identity and Expression Model
The concept of gender identity and expression graphic to help explain the concepts is not new. Hower, OutBüro decided to create our own with some modifications to past models to help further clarify the concepts.
Most models to date have a scale with feminine on one end of a spectrum and masculine on the opposite. We believe that having them separately represented is more accurate was of thinking and helps to better understand.
Meet Chris – the OutBüro Gender Identity and Expression Model
In the diagram below consider the lines noting masculine, feminine, and other as each independent sliding scales from 0 to 100%. If using this as a worksheet, consider marking each scale with a pencil where you feel you are on each scale. Either right-click to download as a JPG file or click here to download a PDF version.
Gender Identity is how you, in your head, experience and define your gender, based on how much you align (or don’t align) with what you understand the options for gender to be. Common associations: personality traits, jobs, hobbies, likes, dislikes, roles, expectations
Gender Expression is how you present gender (through your actions, clothing, and demeanor, to name a few), and how those presentations are viewed based on social expectations. Common associations: style, grooming, clothing, mannerisms, affect, appearance, hair, make-up
Anatomical Sex is the physical traits you’re born with or develop that we think of as “sex characteristics,” as well as the sex you are assigned at birth. Common associations: body hair, chest, hips, shoulders, hormones penis, vulva, chromosomes, voice pitch
Attraction is how you find yourself feeling drawn (or not drawn) to some other people, in sexual, romantic, and/or other ways (often categorized within gender).
January 29, 2021
(updated January 31, 2021)
Published by Dennis Velco
In this episode of OutBüro Voices featuring LGBTQ professionals, entrepreneurs, and community leaders from around the world, host Dennis Velco chats with Zander Keig, a US military veteran, a trans man who has dedicated his career in service to others.
Zander comes from a family with a rich history serving in the US armed forces. After a medical discharge, his career took a slightly winding path yet always with a focus on being of service to others. He became a local police officer, achieved a degree in conflict resolution with a focus on corporate merger and acquisition. But he then attended seminary focusing again on service to others achieving a Masters in Theology. Afterward, he began working in career services working for the State of California working with US Veterans. An economic downturn led to being laid off. and took the opportunity to relocate to Orlando, Florida to be close to family.
During COVID he was led into his current role of providing consulting and coaching services virtually. Zander provides services through an Employer Assistance Program (EAP). Many employers provide EAPs as part of their employee benefits package. The EAP can provide a wide range of support services. Check to see if you have an EAP as part of your benefits. Familiarize yourself with their offerings and take advance of them. For example, many offer mental health services up to a set number of appointments. Many are now providing special services in response to COVID helping employees cope with stress, anxiety, depression, financial concerns, life coping, relationship coaching, sleep hygiene, and more.
Zander is also through consulting helping to establish wellness and inclusion oriented webinars for companies. There is a gap between policy and practice. Due to COVID, there is a huge burnout issue. All the additional home and at-home care responsibilities and issues resulting from COVID while working remotely from home has made many to feel isolated, disconnected, and burnt out. Zander shared that he is working on a new educational service exploring childhood adverse experiences, their impact on adulthood health, outlook, and lifestyle, and how to deal with such adversity in a healthy way. He explains the strong study based research that correlates trauma to addiction, homelessness, obesity, diabetes, heart health.
We chatted about how the LGBTQI community member due to social stigma and family ignorance, religious intolerance dogmatic beliefs, bullying, being shunned, being harassed, and so much more are an adverse experience which also can, and often do affect, the LGBTQ persons.
We chat quite a bit about the US Veteran Administrative Health services and in general how great they are. Both Zander and I are US Veterans AND both use the VA as our healthcare provider. Zander shared how the US VA has two policy directives for the LGB veterans and the second for transgender and intersexed veterans. These policies outline all the rights and entitlements for LGBTQI+ veterans have as medical patients. In addition, all VA centers have at least one LGBTQI+ Patient Care Coordinator who is like a patient advocate. Those may be found on the VA website. The Affordable Care Act ACA) aka Obama Care opened the VA up to provide Healthcare to all US veterans who qualify based on income. All US veterans are encouraged to check out the VA’s website to learn all the facts and see if you may qualify.
Transgender American Veterans Association: http://transveteran.org/ The Transgender American Veterans Association is a non-profit organization dedicated to assisting trans veterans to receive the care and benefits they deserve.
American Veterans for Equal Rights http://aver.us/ American Veterans for Equal Rights (AVER) is a non-profit, non-partisan, chapter-based Veterans Service Organization of active, reserve, and veteran servicemembers dedicated to full and equal rights The Modern Military Association of America (MMAA) https://modernmilitary.org/
MMAA is the nation’s largest organization of LGBTQ service members, military spouses, veterans, their families and allies. To connect with
Join me and Zander on OutBüro, the LGBTQ professional and entrepreneur online community network for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, allies and our employers who support LGBTQ welcoming workplace equality focused benefits, policies, and business practices. https://www.OutBuro.com
December 29, 2020
(updated February 21, 2021)
Published by Dennis Velco
In this episode of OutBüro Voices featuring LGBTQ professionals, entrepreneurs, and community leaders from around the world, host Dennis Velco chats with Max Appenroth: Transgender Experience Focused Healthcare Consultant based in Berlin, Germany.
Max is a male of transgender experience and has had to navigate the public medical system of Germany where doctors are assigned. The assigned doctors were generalists with little to no experience with transgender patients. This led him to have in most cases to educate his doctors on what he needed and how to best treat him. Max is striving to educate the health care and pharmacology community on how to best be inclusive and respond to the sensitivities and needs of the transgender community as patients. His education is inclusive helping companies and organizations be wider and fuller in their diversity, equality, and inclusion.
Gender Identity is the feeling of self whereas sexual orientation is the desire towards. https://outburo.com/understanding-gender-identity-expression-101/
Building your gender-neutral language may seem odd at first, but like all things, the more it is used the more natural it will be.
Max and I discuss how languages that are gendered such as German in where a table is masculine e and a door is feminine creates boundaries for the transgender community. In many cases, the neural term “their” is used. However in German “their” is “Sie” and she is “sie”. It is spelled and sounds exactly the same. The only difference is the capitalization. Language shapes reality and can I fluence how one perceives themselves. In languages that use verbs gender, they must take extra care to form inclusive language.
LGBTQ persons are less likely to receive the care they need due to fear of discrimination. The LGBTQ community experiences life struggles at a greater level and may need more self-care time than other employees. This was in part the reason Max formed his own company to set his own schedule to have the flexibility to be his healthiest self. Employers could implement flexible schedules that would benefit all employees and the employer-supported by numerous studies.
To connect with Max find him on OutBüro here. https://outburo.com/profile/max/
Join me and Bruce on OutBüro, the LGBTQ professional and entrepreneur online community network for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, allies and our employers who support LGBTQ welcoming workplace equality focused benefits, policies, and business practices. https://www.OutBuro.com
Would you like to be featured like this? Contact the host Dennis Velco. https://outburo.com/profile/dennisvelco/
In this candid conversation, we share some personal experiences that led us both in different ways to arrive at the same destination: ourselves.
We discuss the struggles so many LGBTQ persons have with deeply identifying with themselves. Rooted in a need as growing up to hide our true self, we can put forth a fake facade striving to fit in, to not be bullied, to be accepted by our friends, family and coworkers. This can result in many things from isolation, lack of connection with self and others, escapism through substance abuse that can lead to addiction, overachiever syndrome that can lead to burnout along with its associated mental and physical distress.
Who am I? What do I want? What do I need? Am I content? Am I happy? Really happy right now? How do I define happiness? How do I define success? Do I have people in my life I trust and can count on? Am I a person that others really know or a facade of a projection? Do I allow my emotions to race and explode due to other people’s learned or ignorant comments or behaviors? Do I have triggers that others love to ignite? Do I trust others? Do I trust myself? Do I take care of myself? Do I value an active healthy lifestyle?
Profoundly and honestly answering these and many more questions in a safe and supportive environment is the key to living an authentic life where you connect with yourself, discover who you are, appreciate, respect, and yes, love yourself. Then from that core foundation, you can be there for others.
Michael’s Create Space is a program for you to learn to create space for yourself to learn, heal, grow, and experience the fullness of life and the world around you on your terms.
Join me and Michael on OutBüro, the LGBTQ professional and entrepreneur online community network for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, allies and our employers who support LGBTQ welcoming workplace equality focused benefits, policies, and business practices. https://www.OutBuro.com
December 12, 2020
(updated December 12, 2020)
Published by Dennis Velco
In this episode of OutBüro Voices featuring LGBTQ professionals, entrepreneurs, and community leaders from around the world, host Dennis Velco chats with Martin Stark, founder of the World Gay Boxing Championship based in Sydney, Australia.
After a medical condition with Addison’s disease nearly took Martin’s life, he searched for ways to improve his overall health and strength. Once he came across boxing classes he was hooked. Boxing classes involve whole-body strengthening, cardio, flexibility, coordination, endurance, and emphasizes a good healthy diet. Martin found that through the foundation of boxing he also gained confidence on many leaves. He was feeling great, eating well, looking fit, and knew that if he was forced to he could hold his ground. Martin says, “In boxing, the idea is not to hurt another person, but if pressed you have the training, skill, and confidence to diffuse a situation.” Within just 3 years of starting the sport, Martin found a current lack of organized boxing clubs for the LGBTQ community. His newfound passion and lack of resources ignited a spark to create the World Gay Boxing Championship. Martin has been actively reaching out to LGBTQ boxers around the globe and welcomes anyone interested in the sport to connect with him.
Part of the goals of the organization is education. First to partner with gyms that offer boxing to offer education on the LGBTQ community. Martin wants to provide gym certification so LGBTQ people know a gym is welcoming and safe. He recently partnered with the boxing governing association for Australia. They were eager to begin collaborating. Martin believes this is a good step in setting the foundation with such ties. As the WGBC expands similar partnerships will be sought in other countries.
Martin has been pleasantly surprised how many boxers identify as part of the transgender community and how eager all are to help build the organization regionally and globally.
Do you own or work at a gym that offers boxing classes? Reach out to Martin to learn how your gym can become a member to promote boxing within the LGBTQ community.
To connect with Martin find him on OutBüro here. https://outburo.com/profile/martinstark/
Join me and Martin on OutBüro, the LGBTQ professional and entrepreneur online community network for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, allies and our employers who support LGBTQ welcoming workplace equality focused benefits, policies, and business practices. https://www.OutBuro.com
Would you like to be featured like this? Contact the host Dennis Velco. https://outburo.com/profile/dennisvelco/
November 14, 2020
(updated November 14, 2020)
Published by Dennis Velco
In this episode of OutBüro Voices featuring LGBTQ professionals, entrepreneurs, and community leaders from around the world, host Dennis Velco chats with Sharon Rea, a Total Life Change Expert coach located in South Whales.
Connect with Scott on OutBüro at https://outburo.com/profile/sharon/
01:00 Understanding WHY someone does what they do is insightful and inspirational. Further, hear how they arrived at where they are today in their professional career, business, or community leadership role may inspire others.
01:45 Sharen shares that earlier this year she had the idea to launch 3 Empowerment Days. One focused on the LGBTQ+ community, the second on women, and the third on men.
02:10 Fear due to the COVID pandemic has for some been compounded by underlying fears.
02:35 Sharen explains that low confidence, low self-esteem, not believing in oneself, panic, phobia, anxiety, are all based on fear.
03:15 Sharon has developed a content-free way of dealing with deep-rooted long-held fears without having to delve back into the past situations that were the root causes. The system has been trialed over and over with gray success.
04:00 Virtual workshops are coupled with a duration of support.
:15 Confidence doesn’t happen overnight. It has to be taught/learned.
17:30 Sharon explains the difference between being shy and introverted
19:30 All thoughts and emotions are electrical and chemical. One gets addicted to the chemical naturally released based on the emotion. Fear, anger, depression, anxiety all release chemicals you can be addicted to. Luckily good healthy emotions and mental states are equally addictive.
23:00 Become aware of turning off the familiar autopilot to break free and change your life.
24:00 Sharon explains that her process blocks the fear and like switching on a light.
25:00 Sharon describes the empowerment course and follow-up.
27:00 Fear is a root emotion that builds layers. We discuss the fear of acceptance, love, money, success, prosperity, and more.
29:00 Accepting, respecting, loving and a relationship with yourself first is the most important and a foundation to give and receive from others.
32:00 Labels are the other person’s projections and attempt to make themselves feel comfortable. They do not define you.
36:00 Have rules of engagement and boundaries. Make others aware of what you will not do, discuss, tolerate, etc. If and when those are passed or broken halt it and remind the other person. If it continues you may need to reconsider that relationship, limit it and maybe walk away, no matter who it is.
Join Sharon on OutBüro, the LGBTQ professional and entrepreneur online community network for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, allies and our employers who support LGBTQ welcoming workplace equality focused benefits, policies, and business practices. https://www.OutBuro.com
Would you like to be featured like this? Contact the host Dennis Velco. https://outburo.com/profile/dennisvelco/
August 22, 2020
(updated December 7, 2020)
Published by Dennis Velco
In this episode of OutBüro Voices featuring LGBTQ professionals, entrepreneurs, and community leaders from around the world, host Dennis Velco chats with Tristen Schukraft, the CEO/Founder of Mistr (https://www.heymistr.com) an online source for PrEP, the HIV prevention medication.
In our chat with Tristen, an openly gay entrepreneur, we discuss briefly his first business in the travel industry before diving into Mistr. He openly shares how he borrowed $10k from his parents and sold over 450 Razor scooters to gather enough capital to start that business. Tristen demonstrated the scrappy grit of bootstrapping entrepreneurial spirit. That business is still in operation 20 years later and is a significant player in the travel technology arena. Tristen is still a majority shareholder yet not involved in the daily operations. That has given him the ability to focus on building Mistr.
Are you sexually active? Are you meeting guys on Grindr, Scruff, Hornet or other hookup apps? In profiles, it appears that most say they are on PrEP, but the prescription numbers prove otherwise. He might be HAF, but don’t put your health at risk. Control your own health and get on PrEP.
PrEP (pre-exposure prophylaxis) is a once-daily pill regimen that is 99% effective at preventing HIV. MISTR allows users to consult securely online with a licensed physician, complete the required lab work in the privacy of their home, and have their PrEP medication delivered free of charge each month, all without needing to visit a doctor’s office. Mistr is a telemedicine service currently solely focused on making access to HIV preventative medication convenient and affordable including currently in 12 states completely free. He and his team are working on making it free in all 50 states. Where not yet free, the cost is only $99 every 3 months. That includes the doctor consultations, blood lab work, and the medication.
Often, even those with health insurance can find that under their employer’s health plan they could be paying hundreds of dollars for the same tests, consultation and medication. Your local doctor and pharmacist are not aware of all the programs in place for this necessary and vital proactive health care medication. If they are aware they push the burden of completing all registrations back on to you. It can be cumbersome for many. Mistr on the other hand does all that for you. Again, currently in 12 states through the partnered programs, it is completely free for you.
In the remaining states, the $99 every 3 months is usually a huge saving of money, but also time. You have a phone or video conference with the doctor meaning you don’t have to leave work. Just take a short break at the scheduled time to step outside or into a private space and chat via your phone. Testing is done at home with a simple finger prick. If you aren’t comfortable doing that, there are over 2,200 labs across the US to do in-person tests. Once approved, your medication arrives in the mail and continues on a regular schedule.
With Mistr, getting and staying on PrEP is easy, affordable, if not free, and convenient. Your health is worth checking Mistr out today. Mistr is open to everyone. Gay, straight, male, or female. HIV doesn’t care who you are or who you have intimate relations with. “We’re proud that we have created the most affordable and easy to use online telePrEP platform,” said MISTR’s founder Tristan Schukraft. “PrEP is 99% effective at preventing HIV, and unfortunately PrEP is not utilized as much as it should be. We hope this opportunity will allow even more people to access this vital component in the fight against HIV.” Most insurance plans cover PrEP. For those who don’t have insurance or who are underinsured, MISTR manages all the paperwork needed to qualify users for patient assistance programs ensuring patients have no out-of-pocket costs. With no doctors office, no needles, no paperwork and free delivery, MISTR has eliminated all the barriers to PrEP.
MISTR is a telemedicine (telePrEP) platform offering easy online access to pre-exposure prophylaxis (PrEP) across the United States. Gay owned and operated, MISTR has brought together a network of the best doctors, pharmacists, and problem solvers to make PrEP available to all who need it. No doctor’s office, no needles, no paperwork, and free delivery. Get started today at heymistr.com and follow @heymistr on Instagram
To connect with Bruce find him on OutBüro here. https://outburo.com/profile/tristen/
Join me and Tristen on OutBüro, the LGBTQ professional and entrepreneur online community network for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, allies and our employers who support LGBTQ welcoming workplace equality focused benefits, policies, and business practices. https://www.OutBuro.com
Would you like to be featured like this? Contact the host Dennis Velco. https://outburo.com/profile/dennisvelco/
August 17, 2020
(updated December 7, 2020)
Published by Dennis Velco
In this episode of OutBüro Voices featuring LGBTQ professionals, entrepreneurs, and community leaders from around the world, host Dennis Velco chats with Saraounia Mboka-Boyer, a Senior Capacity Development and Inclusion Specialist at Pact.
Saraounia is a bilingual organizational change management and development specialist focusing on the intersections of Capacity Development/Building, sustainability, Gender equity, and Climate Change for systems strengthening in an international development context(s). In our discussion, she explains what Capacity Development is and how improving the basic operational skills can improve an organization’s chances of gaining grants or other funding so they may work on their core mission. Marginalized communities include the gay (homosexual), lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and queer populations within the many countries Pact operates.
01:10 Saraounia introduces her international exposure due to parents work with the #UnitedNations
02:45 Attended her first HIV/AIDS workshop at ages 6 accompanying her father which began to shape her foundation
04:00 She explains what capacity development is and how she applies that with organizations
Pact (https://www.pactworld.org/) is a nonprofit international development organization founded in 1971, Pact works on the ground in nearly 40 countries to improve the lives of those who are challenged by poverty and marginalization. They work in many areas including HIV/AIDS care and prevention. When called upon, they openly work with LGBTQ focused organizations based in the regions they operate in needing their assistance. They welcome partnerships to further create impactful change. In her role at Pact, she assists non-profit NGOs primarily within the countries of Liberia, Congo, South Africa, Indonesia, and Myanmar.
To connect with Saraounia find her on OutBüro here. https://www.outburo.com/profile/saouniasmb/
Join me and Saraounia on OutBüro, the LGBTQ professional and entrepreneur online community network for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, allies and our employers who support LGBTQ welcoming workplace equality focused benefits, policies, and business practices. https://www.OutBuro.com
Would you like to be featured like this? Contact the host Dennis Velco. https://outburo.com/profile/dennisvelco/
David Clive Price is an out LGBT entrepreneur mental wellbeing life coach, author and so much more. David has traveled the globe and lived in several countries which have given him a keen perspective on multiculturalism and leadership styles within different cultural contexts. David like so many, particularly persons in the LGBT community, struggled with coming to terms with family and society messaging of norms versus his authentic self. Despite outward signs of success, he like many struggled with internally owning his own narrative and views which lead to depression and anxiety. Over time David learned to reframe the past messages or programs that led to the substance abuse overcome. Through his books and personal mental wellbeing, David has transformed his life into supporting others on their own journey of working through addictions, depression, anxiety, and other issues that hold you back from living a full, thriving authentic and healthy life.
23:00 You cannot change the past yet you can choose how you react and respond. You control yourself.
26:00 You cannot change others, you may, however, set boundaries and enforce them 30:00 Habits create triggers and emotions have brain chemical associations that you become addicted to. Even the feeling of anger, victimization, and all other have a chemical reaction in the brain that you become addicted to. You can learn to reduce and eliminate those addictions and replace them with healthy habits and feelings.
36:00 Having a wellness life coach can help you in your process
David is well known for his clarity of analysis and approach, drawing on his experience and passion for people and cultures all over the world. He brings a strong comparative mindset to the challenges of his clients, enabling them to overcome their doubts and fears and to discover their true inner selves. Combining ancient healing practices such as the Korean art of nunchi (gauging other people’s feelings) with a holistic approach to self-leadership, David developed the Hidden Demons Method™: Discover Your Superpower. With this method he helps clients look within themselves and discover their true inner voice, overcoming their Hidden Demons of anxiety, addiction, and fear of failure. He then sets them on a course to higher performance, fulfillment, and authenticity. This superpower framework has been adopted by individuals, teams, and institutions all over the world and can be applied in any business or start-up. David is a living example of his principle of Daring to Dream. He coaches, teaches mental, and spiritual healing, speaks, motivates, and lives his global mission of helping others to discover their true selves.
Now more than ever we need a guide on how to survive not only with our mental and emotional health intact, but also strengthened, full of resourcefulness and agility, ready to combat our Hidden Demons. Chaos strikes and suddenly we realize we are more fragile than we thought — more exposed, unsafe, less in control. It is easy to invoke resilience. However, resilience is in short supply for many people who cannot quite understand what has hit them, either financially or in the loss of their usual bonds and customs. We need guides on how we can survive not only with our mental and emotional wellbeing intact, but also strengthened, full of resourcefulness and agility.
Now more than ever we need a guide on how to survive not only with our mental and emotional health intact, but also strengthened, full of resourcefulness and agility, ready to combat our Hidden Demons.
Throughout this course and its six modules, David shows that the path to rediscovering your life and purpose starts with tiny steps. It begins with getting yourself up off the floor (almost literally in his case). It continues in the days and weeks ahead as you seek to discover what your inner voices are telling you about your Hidden Demons, about your past, about social conventions, about your true talents – and whether you are really listening. More often than not, it’s two steps forward and one step back. Nothing can be achieved in a day, but everyone has a path to their true self and calling. It won’t come from social media. It won’t come from following movements and demagogues. It can come from the simplest of journeys, even imaginatively – to a college campus, to a forest for a walk, to the seaside, or to an unfamiliar city. But first of all you have to get to the starting point. That for many people is the most difficult step.
Learn the Six Life Strategies that David has developed to keep the mindset, habits and perspective needed to stay centered, focused, healthy, and strong throughout this and future crises.
David’s own life has not always been easy, and he has experienced constant challenges along the way, both as a gay man and as a relapsing alcoholic. However, he transparently shares in every section of his book and course what his “Hidden Demons” were ⎯ and as you follow along, you will discover that the Hidden Demons method™ is not only about fear, addictions and bringing hope and comfort in the darkness. It is so much more; it is a flashlight we all need on our journey to awaken our true greatness.
About David Clive Price, Ph.D.
Born in South London to Welsh parents, David graduated from Cambridge University with a Ph.D. in Renaissance History, won a British Academy fellowship to lecture at Bologna University, and wrote his first books — including his first novel — when living as a farmer-translator in Tuscany. He then moved to Japan and Hong Kong to study Asian cultures while taking up his first professional position at the Economist Intelligence Unit. This was followed by five years as the chief speechwriter for Asia for the HSBC Group during the return of Hong Kong to China. In parallel with his professional career, he continued to develop a passion for the people, religions and cultures of the world, which was reflected in a series of travel books including a study of Buddhism and spiritual beliefs in Asian daily life.
His successful track record in high-level communications for global CEOs, senior leaders, and politicians, which he carried forward in his coaching and writing consultancy on leaving HSBC, gave him a special insight into the challenges of high performance and behavioral change. These insights now inform his work with people of many different backgrounds as they seek to move forward and overcome the stress, burnout, and anxiety they are facing in their personal and professional lives. Speaking English, French, German, Italian and Cantonese, and having lived and worked in numerous countries, Dr. David Clive Price’s multicultural experience informs all his executive coaching, as well as his bestselling books Bamboo Strong with Foreword by Dr.Marshall Goldsmith, and the upcoming Hidden Demons: How to Overcome Fear, Anxiety, and Addiction in Uncertain Times.
Conversation Auto Transcript
The below was created through voice to text recognition. We will strive to edit for accuracy as time permits. It may not be perfect. It is being provided for the hearing impaired to still enjoy the interview.
Unknown Speaker 0:02 321
Unknown Speaker 0:05 Hello, this is Dennis Velco with OutBüro your website for LGBT professional and entrepreneurial endeavors. You are listening to this week’s episode of our new podcast again where we bring you interesting, lively, and sometimes hopefully entertaining conversations with LGBT entrepreneurs and professionals as well as community leaders spanning the globe. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you are watching this on YouTube, take a few moments and subscribe right now hit that subscribe button as well as the bell that will ensure that you are notified as soon as new episodes come available. Also, you’re able to subscribe. Follow us on in places such as Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify I Heart Radio and about 10 other podcasts so that you can listen to out your voices on the go at the gym, in your car on your way to work doing house chores line on the beaches, so much more tuned in with every episode to out your voices. And today we are very happy to have David Clive Price. He is an author, a mental health specialist, and an all-around guru on building change and leadership into your life. Thank you so much for joining us today. David. Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here Dennis. Wonderful, wonderful and you are hailing from across the pond as from the UK, correct?
Unknown Speaker 1:46 Yes. From Blighty, as they called it, during the war they called it Blighty, so old Blighty
Unknown Speaker 1:56 the United Kingdom Yes,
Unknown Speaker 1:58 wonderful land. For our viewers and listeners, what area of the UK Are you coming from?
Unknown Speaker 2:03 I’m coming from speaking from London. Oh,
Unknown Speaker 2:07 yes. Wonderful and gorgeous city. So, David, why don’t we kind of jump in to you giving us a bit of your background, which is very rich and diverse. And of course we strive for data an hour, I know you could probably speak for six or more hours with as much as going on, and you’re interesting books. But let’s give a little overview as to your background. And then we’ll lead into kind of a chronological step up from back then through your current projects.
Unknown Speaker 2:43 Sounds great, well, that’d be playing it straight in and say that I help entrepreneurs and LGBTQ professionals to overcome mental health challenges, such as fear, anxiety and addiction, so that they can face their Hidden demons and create a more fulfilled life and abundant business. So I’m the author of bamboo strong cultural intelligence secrets to succeed in the new global economy. and, more recently, the age of pluralism, global intelligence for emerging leaders. Okay, so
Unknown Speaker 3:23 just a little bit. Tell us just a little bit about the the bamboo strong. That’s an interesting title.
Unknown Speaker 3:31 Yeah, well, as the title suggests, it’s to do with, with bending in the wind, if you like, metaphorically, strong, but also resisted, strong, but flexible and agile. And that is the central thesis of the book really, which is based on my own travels and experiences around the world, and particularly in Asia Pacific, but also you In the States and Europe, in South America, with different countries and cultures and backgrounds dealing with people of difference of our differences, in other words,
Unknown Speaker 4:13 and the book
Unknown Speaker 4:16 has as its framework, what’s called the cultural intelligence or CQ model, a four part model to help you relate with, make relationships with, negotiate with, understand the differences of and create emotional intelligence for dealing with people of many backgrounds and cultures, races, generations and creeds. So the book goes on the journey through through my own life experiences by using this CPU model.
Unknown Speaker 4:54 Okay, well that certainly, and all the times but especially in today’s since times here in the United States with racial tensions and so forth. I’m sure that your book would be bamboo strong would be an excellent read for for anyone, but particularly those in whatever leadership positions you might find yourself and whether that’s leadership in an organization via an employer or even a community nonprofit sounds like a really good read, especially now in today’s time.
Unknown Speaker 5:30 Yes, we’re dealing with a great deal of tension around diversity and inclusion. We have maybe a lot of celebration of diversity, as we’ve had this month for gay pride, of course, but not so much necessarily of for inclusion. That’s both in society at large and in companies and corporations, etc. So there is a great The more education needed on the diversity and inclusion front, which this book tends to help with. And the follow up book which is called the age of pluralism, global intelligence for emerging leaders. So, those are in the back the younger generations to again with its own framework for dealing with differences personal, cultural, generational. So that is the background to my sorry, say, multi multiracial multicultural work and at the same time that the kind of qualities and capabilities are required for but working together well with people have many different backgrounds are similar to Those that we need in mental health challenges, which are also. So current and particularly now with the global pandemic, increasingly currents and increasing pandemic of mental health issues of all kinds. So,
Unknown Speaker 7:23 agility, looking within
Unknown Speaker 7:28 discovering inner resources, empathy, emotional intelligence, these are the kind of leadership issues and personal issues that that my books and my frameworks address.
Unknown Speaker 7:44 Okay, and just for audience, I can’t believe we didn’t escape. You’re also if I’m not mistaken. Psychologists
Unknown Speaker 7:52 know, I’m also qualified practitioner, as a psychologist. Now I’m a I’m a PhD. I saw the doctor
Unknown Speaker 7:59 guide Yeah, sorry, my mistake without I don’t have my glasses on to look at my notes.
Unknown Speaker 8:08 Okay, but definitely, definitely interesting topics and what is your PhD in?
Unknown Speaker 8:16 It’s in Renaissance history actually. Wow. So I took a great interest in history at college and at school indeed and then Cambridge I studied the Renaissance and actually Renaissance music and and then disappear from courts and country houses of idioms. Initially sauce. That’s what kicked off my interest and then I had a fellowship on the British Academy to go over to Italy.
Unknown Speaker 8:52 And
Unknown Speaker 8:53 I studied the northern Italian Renaissance courts. Wow for one, two years. At
Unknown Speaker 9:02 a beautiful period, but I would not want to live in that era. Just, you know, being being obviously also a gay person assuming that I grew up in a gay person then as well. But what’s what’s interesting though, is you know, from your your PhD in history looking at that, you know, and your, your travels in and around you, you live in so many places around the world, in in Asia and Africa, us and so forth. And, you know, being able to take a look at a historical and a cultural perspective because I firmly believe that for leaders and for you as an individual to really look forward, you also have to be able to look in the past and it’s not dwell on the past, but he is acknowledge the past right? So just like if you’re wanting to make changes in your own life, changes in your behaviors, you have to be able to acknowledge the past because if you just ignore it, and you have no no reference for it, when it comes to your own personal issues, then you’re less likely to successfully overcome it because you haven’t dealt with it properly. Yes, and when it comes to a business practice, being able to fully lead and drive new products and services, you know, like new product developments, one of the other guests. Two weeks ago, we talked about how, how important it is to be able to understand for example, the adoption of technologies, new products and services, and to to understand how your new product or service might be adopted today, you know, we might, it might not take us today. 10 years to a gap, for example, as it did from black and white television to colored television. And of course now, we all have basically one sitting here. You know, whatever I grew up, we had the big black huge console with the built in huge fingers. I mean, it was a piece of furniture, right? Yeah. Yeah. And and here we are, and same, you know, with you as well, you know, back back then that television, you had one TV per household, it was a coveted item. Everyone sat around it. Well, now everyone just walks around basically TV on their phone. And and so, you know, that that but being able to look at the past and say, you know, how did cultures or how did individuals consumers or or businesses adapt to this is that is a very strong point in Understanding how you can move forward when there are some gaps. But it definitely relates to your mental. Yes. mental challenges and mental mental opportunities. Yeah, looking,
Unknown Speaker 12:15 looking into your past Yes. or looking into analyzing the stories that you tell yourself. That’s one of the lead strategies in hidden demons, which is, you know, we have, some of them are conscious stories, but many of them are unconscious stories they may lay hidden within us that we’re not entirely aware of, and they may in some curious way still dictate our behavior and perhaps our mental health challenges as well. And so being able to analyze the stories or look within yourself for the stories, I think these are big and that relates more generally on the on the widest Scale to being able to look at our history to be able to look at the history of other cultures and have other people put to putting things in context. And to have more than one perspective in mind at the same time is Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 13:18 so that, you know, I heard I heard some other people perhaps this is try to explain as I understand it, and perhaps it’s explaining exactly what you said in a slightly different way. But I’d love to hear from you if it’s if it’s this similar kind of concept. And through some of the the work that I’ve done, I’ve heard it called, they termed it as your programming, right, having a track seven green, conscious and unconscious memory as programming. And so, you know, for example, if you grew up with a parent who from an early He gave you the signals that you were not worthy you are not going to amount to anything via verbal and or just through their actions through not paying attention to you through not helping you with your schoolwork. And then well, you know, I knew you weren’t going to do well in that. So why bother? Those are approved that’s laying down programming within the brain that says, I’m not worth spending time with. I’m not good at anything. And, and so it can affect how then you see the world view and interpret and interact with the world today.
Unknown Speaker 14:44 Yeah, and of course,
Unknown Speaker 14:46 and so
Unknown Speaker 14:49 there’s ways so does your book in modern demons goes into ways to kind of rewrite those stories or rewrite those programs and you
Unknown Speaker 15:00 goes very much into how we can use those stories to move forward. And of course, for LGBTQ people, often the coming out story is the biggest story of all. And you know, all the what to say the the influx of emotions and secrecy and shame, perhaps that goes before coming out, especially to your family. And these can have reverberations throughout your life unless you’re aware of them. And of course, we can address these demons by becoming aware of them and that means looking at them. sounds simple, but it’s not so simple in reality, Ray’s story stories.
Unknown Speaker 15:56 Yeah. Well because you know, it is such a struggle that is partly due to the underlying reasoning why so many years study after study shows that some of the some of these studies I have written about some of them, I’ve just not gotten around to but they’re out there. So do Google them folks, is you know, study after study shows that LGBT you persons suffer from higher levels or more frequent levels of anxiety, depression, more a higher attempts of suicide. There’s just there’s lots of studies in and around the LGBTQ mental
Unknown Speaker 16:38 mental health. Yeah, and that
Unknown Speaker 16:40 and that I think goes a lot into you know, the rejections the bat because of religion, different religions around the world, who, you know, preach and or whatever they call it. I mean, I know I don’t misprint mistake for other religions and cultures. But you know, I grew up in a very fundamentalist right wing environment myself. To this day. My own father is extremely right wing I can’t even say the word community without him beginning his, quote scripture. So and and I know what that is what part of that is done for me and I’m not going to get into the whole story. I’ve been told I could write books about my youth and teenage years, not off centered around me but it all centered around religion and how it was used in a very negative way. And so so I really get that’s one thing why this really stuck out to me because I personally know how those stories you know, sometimes you’ll find or antidote to flee that LGBT people work, you know, x men You know, x times harder, x times more, it’s like we’re always trying to prove ourselves. So yes,
Unknown Speaker 18:07 exactly. And
Unknown Speaker 18:08 I think is trying to overcome those stories overcome those programming. But then there’s also a string of self destruction. also kind of going into those programs or stories as you call them. And it’s like, well, if I’m not worthy, why bother? Why shouldn’t I just drink myself into a stupor every night? No one cares, right? I mean, that’s what does the programming that gets put into your mind if I’m not worthy enough for my own family from my own parents love and my own father’s acceptance in my own mother’s acceptance, or my own siblings acceptance then then why should I even exist, so who cares I’ll just go out and party every night and have fun because I’m not going to live anyways. Because you know, all those negative kind of stories come in and can lead to a life and Like style of kind of nonchalant, nonchalant pneus yet, yet, what’s interesting is the dualism, I work Work, Work work, you know, I, when I say I, you know, putting this in framework of the listener is, you know, you work, work, work, work work to try to prove yourself, but then also have these destructive behaviors kind of happening simultaneously. So, if I could do a chunk about those,
Unknown Speaker 19:27 yeah, I mean, I maybe had a less less than tolerant family and mother and father. But there probably was something there that particularly for my father that was always kind of in the background, even when I came out and he more or less accepted it and my mother more or less accepted it, etc, etc. But there’s just one little example is the school play. I was playing Hamlet course as a little achiever to at school. So I had to be, you know, handwritten Could school play and as kind of honor that last night and the parents came along and I was quite pleased with myself, I thought it went well. And I went up to the balcony later to see them and expected them to say, David, that was terrific. You know, we really enjoyed it. I know how they got peak, they more or less got up and said, I think it’s time now to go to the car. And I realized that that I didn’t realize then but later on thinking about it, it’s because they thought that confirm certain tendencies. This is before I came out to be fair, you know, confirm certain tendencies. And it’s, you know, it’s, you’re always achieving a lot of people a lot of LGBTQ people continue to achieve achieve achieve throughout their lives and always have a slight sense of they’re not quite good enough, which is what I explore in the book as well. But however much you do, whatever success you have, there’s something not quite right. And I have clients in my local LGBT few Leaders Program now who do talk about this kind of underlying our knees but needing to refine that purpose. And and listening to those stories. As I said earlier, that’s one of the techniques that we use to go deeper down. And then living in the present too. That’s another big strategy that we’re always projecting. unease or dissatisfaction onto the future or will it will it? Will it realize my fears that I had when I was a child or when I was a adolescent boy, young man will the next 10 year will the next five When will something go wrong? Even when we’ve got you know everything going for us will something go wrong?
Unknown Speaker 22:08 Which is
Unknown Speaker 22:12 things that we have to deal with and come out on the other side off.
Unknown Speaker 22:18 Personally I struggled with alcoholism, depression, anxiety, and not constantly I achieved in between, you know, I was speechwriter for one for one of the world’s largest banks. I wrote several travel books about different countries around the world a show etc.
Unknown Speaker 22:42 And I you know, I then
Unknown Speaker 22:46 always rebounding to alcohol
Unknown Speaker 22:50 even though I found my life’s true love, you know, we call so you know, there’s always a sort of underlying, eventually I got through it. And now I’m a reasonably successful entrepreneur life coach, but you know, you have to go through certain phases unfortunately as a gay man or at least be aware of them as an LGBTQ person or at least be aware of them because they are there to trip you up and that’s why the book is called hidden demons how to overcome fear and anxiety and addiction to thrive in uncertain times. Okay,
Unknown Speaker 23:29 well in and this you know, for for those listening is and watching is it’s this is about dealing with your your past and helping to frame that and put perspective around it. You can’t change your past, but you can change the way you view it. That’s your choice. Okay, you can’t, you can’t change what people have said to you and done to you. However, what you can Choose is how you react and respond to that. Because you have, it’s you who control you. Right? Yeah. If someone makes you angry, No, they didn’t. You made yourself angry. You chose to take that reaction and take that response. If someone disrespected, you know, you chose to take it that way. It’s all in your own choices right here has nothing to do with the other person. They’re going on. They’re going about their lives. If you know if you happen to be like me, and even as of two Christmases ago, I mean, it was chaotic. You know, I my father was asking about me moving further south, which was to Fort Lauderdale. Oh, well, why are you moving Being down there. And you know, I’ve learned throughout the years to avoid key words that would set him into his religious tirades. And finally, but he has learned keep pressing Dennis with question and question and question and question until I hear the question or until I hear the the the trigger and then I get to go off and I can justify it and I can be my religious asshole. So, well. Do you know what that particular Christmas was? I stopped reacting. I simply put my finger is from his nose and I said stop. You stop. I’m a 15 year old man and I will not tolerate it any longer. It’s your choice. You will not you will not get the upset, but I will not tolerate it. We chose to say that we are going to respect each other. And that means if you ask me a question you have to be adult enough to leave Listen to the answer. And so that was a big step for me. Yeah. And you know, I’ve always have been the person who pushed and asked questions and questions and yeah, we’ve always as I like to say we’ve always had great pleasantry conversations pleasantries, just talking about the little niceties, gardening, housework and so forth, but when it comes to, and his job and all of that, but really not about life, you know, and, and that’s unfortunate, but you know, you can’t change other people. You have to be able to take your life and control you. Right. Sometimes you have to put boundaries on other people, because they they purposely try to poke and prod, which is what he did for years. Yeah. Kind of childish. But
Unknown Speaker 26:56 so
Unknown Speaker 26:58 but you’re right you control you I think that’s very right. Yeah. You control you
Unknown Speaker 27:05 laterally. Yes. Yes. You You control you,
Unknown Speaker 27:08 you are not controlled by the outside forces, whatever they are external forces you control you. Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker 27:18 Yeah. And so when when you then utilize books like these, and all of them sound like incredible worthy reads is you’re then able to put those into perspective and put your own history to perspective and say, Alright, and you know, the past is the past you can’t change it. You can’t change the way you reacted and responded based on those triggers that were very ingrained that programming that was very ingrained. But what you can do is you can change the way you react, you know, it’s just like, just like stopping drink, or for pay out. I will share something have you guys here? Okay, so if you’ve even just listened to these, you know, about three years ago, I had a divorce and a 17 year relationship Well, me being me, because I’ve had a two, a NINE and a 17 year relationship. So I’ve been in relationships like 98% of mine and not always good. I would stay in them for all kinds of reasons. convenience. Just, I would stay in bad relationships. But, so just three and a half months after being out of the will, three and a half months of being on my own living on my own. What does dentists do? Next? prep basically next guy that comes along, man, within a month, we’re living together. I mean, this is as my friends like to say. That is yours, that is u haul packing. lesbians. You know, as soon as you start dating someone, you’re like, boom, boom, boom, you know, you’re picking out the chick next trying to patterns. like omg. Well, this this fella smokes cigarettes. I’ve never smoked cigarettes in my life. outside of here, there’s, you know, one or two, you know, kind of a thing now and then like once a year kind of thing. And this guy smokes, regularly, constantly, almost every day says he’s going to stop. But, you know, as we started to go out, he would, you know, pass me a cigarette, and say, Okay, and then another and then another. Then as I started to stay at his house, he began to leave two or three a day for me. Then it became five or six, then it became half a pack. Within within about three month period, I went from not smoking basically my entire life to smoke today, and it took me almost two years. And finally, one day, I just had to say, Stop. What the f are you doing? Hmm. And and to be honest, it’s turned off other guys that I was interested in. Yeah. And it’s like, if for nothing else I need to stop because of that, right. But it was that little bit of, I guess a little bit of social programming that happened in a very short time period. So when you now is
Unknown Speaker 30:29 a habit,
Unknown Speaker 30:31 yes. which create triggers. And this also when you’re a child, and when you’re a young person and you’re growing up, also the experiences that you have have chemical triggers. Yes. And those Exactly. And those become you become addicted to those chemical triggers in the brain.
Unknown Speaker 30:54 Yes, but you can and unlearn them. Yes. It’s a big thing. But that’s what the book talks about a lot. Just like fear, anxiety, depression, they are kind of addiction. They’re definitely a habit. And just like those habits can can be unlearned. They can be you can learn new habits that take that place, not immediately. Not, you know, I got, I got a box, the one out of the box, kind of a quick solution to that. Not immediately, but one step at a time. In my case, one day at a time, I was throwing myself off my bedroom, balcony at high up in Hong Kong until the airport expressway I was about to
Unknown Speaker 31:48 you know, and but somehow I came back from that thinking of my my loved one, I mean my other half
Unknown Speaker 31:58 but the habits Gone to this extent that I was that I was on the anti suicide. The habit also was taking one step back, taking two step back, thinking of Simon three steps back, getting to the sofa, holding on to the sofa clutching x, then finding the phone, then finding the Samaritan number from directory inquiries, then getting that then them talking to me. Then by eight o’clock in the morning, this was like four in the in the morning by eight o’clock in the morning, I knew I could get down in the elevator down to the lobby, and then call up a friend and then go over to a friend’s house for two days. But the steps back from those black holes in our lives are so important, and everything can be replaced with a new habit. Yes, new and new habits of sobriety. For example,
Unknown Speaker 33:00 of absence of fear of not projecting
Unknown Speaker 33:07 nervousness or anxiety onto the future, with living one day at a time, etc, etc. So, and happiness
Unknown Speaker 33:17 and this new habits taking time is is, you know getting Where’s kind of going would be the that temporary smoking thing because it’s just like I learned that that new habit over about a two month period it took about two months also for me to once I finally made the decision, it took about that same amount of time to end. And, you know, those long held ingrained beliefs. As David was saying, you know, they just don’t go away immediately because they are long held ingrained. Yeah, stories slash programs and they take a conscious effort To adjust. And so so you offer Well, a mental well being life coaching. Yes. And so do you then help your clients make these adjustments?
Unknown Speaker 34:16 Yes, that’s part of the programs Very much so. And not all LGBTQ clients but I do have a special program for LGBTQ professionals. But yeah, I help them with the these kinds of issues. It was a six, six module six parts program really to overcome your hidden demons to lead a more fulfilled and abundant life, the most satisfying with free of unease and curious unease that we LGBTQ people have until he’s, in my case well into my second adulthood or boyhood, or whatever I’m in at the moment. Right?
Unknown Speaker 35:11 Well, and you know, it’s no disrespect to, you know, any mental health care practitioner, you know, out out there. But you know, when it comes to authenticity, knowing that someone has gone through something in my personal opinion, makes them more relatable
Unknown Speaker 35:33 and more
Unknown Speaker 35:36 you know, again, no, no disrespect and maybe maybe someone in the comments will say, No, that’s absolutely not right. You don’t have to have been a you know, addicted to drugs or alcohol in order to be effective counselor. No, no, I you know, I guess not. But I had several people in my my my life who have gone through rehabilitation from both. And the the over arching or the commonality in the several people that I know. They, again, no please don’t hate on me whatever and comments and all of that, but there, they had a better success. And they opened up more when they knew that the that their counselor had gone through something that they like, was it always the exact same thing? You know, like one was addicted to methamphetamines, unfortunately, which is very rampant in the LGBT community, especially the gaming community. And but the person his counselor was an a, you know, a recovered alcoholic, that made him just feel more like Oh, you’ve you’ve gone through something you’ve overcome something so therefore you get me. And it was, maybe it was just from this one person that a friend has done for you. She was a total like Christine person hadn’t, you know, perfect life perfect. Everything had hadn’t had anything. And, and I don’t know if maybe she conveyed to too much of that to my friend, but it was just they were not he was not opening up to her. And I think it’s because he felt like she was just had couldn’t relate, you know, like clinically, you know, one thing is to be clinically textbook. The other thing is to have life experiences and wisdom. Does that make sense? And I’m open to people having comments and so forth. If you do, folks, just whatever platform you’re on, put comments down below what your thoughts are on that. What are your thoughts on that game?
Unknown Speaker 37:54 Well, I think as a coach in general, as a life coach Pat’s particular You need to trust you need to build that relationship of trust. And sometimes it’s more difficult if you’re only working together on a high powered professional level or as the achieving coach and the you know yet to achieve. Coaching is something to do with trust and particularly in these areas of mental health. But that is really, really important. relatable. I think a lot of coaches try to be relatable and the coaching relationship is based on on being relatable and integrity. But sometimes it’s the trust factor is missing the full trust and being, as you say, able to to relate to someone who been there and done that in many ways and has a lot of experiences to tell. which gives me You know, I’m, I’m privileged to do this work and but, and honored to, to help people because I’ve also been incredibly lucky to have so many experiences all over the world to have a rich and diverse background, I’m very lucky if I’m able to say that now beforehand, if when I was drinking, I probably there was another one, or I did not flatter my back in my Tokyo flat for the 12th time, you know, Night after night, waking up at six in the morning in your own body, etc. You know, and and that’s after writing a couple of books, and that’s after being well respected. I wrote my first novel setting in New York again, otherwise it happens called Alphabet City. I’ve had a little bit of success that the gay writer on white wrote a great review of it and endorsed it, etc. But then I went back to Italy and then things began to fall to pieces again and then I’m back on the old vino from I had a little farm in Italy. After I finished my fellowship together my first partner we bought a little farm, but two or three, four years there, I wrote my first books and and was a wine and olive farmer which I loved. But also titling the wine. You know, as a wind farmer, you’re allowed to triple A wine at five in the morning, right with a garlic bread and tomato. So while you’re doing your vines, so yeah,